~Heh. My god people...have we witnessed the creation of...Fanon! Edgar? Does this fandom have fanon now? Real honest-to-god fanon? AWESOME bwahahahahahaaaaaa
Anyway, actually I was just thinkin about this recently. Well, about my characterization of Edgar. I'm always agonizing over the characterization of people in Vargas (and all my sidefics, really). Prepare fer random rambling ruminations on what Edgar's character could actually beeee I'm sorry that was a horrible preamble.

ANYWAY where was I? OH RIGHT. Okay.

The way that I viewed Edgar and his relationship with religion was not one that I'd describe as vehement, persay. While Edgar does strongly believe in what he does believe in, he does not bring it up until he has no other choice. Or in fact, until Johnny asks him why he isn't afraid. When he DOES speak about it, he does it in a rather flippant way. "You know, God and all that."

The thing is that while I'm sure that Edgar's religion is important to him, and that it IS something that he has a great deal of faith in, it's not something that he would use to define his character, exactly. While arguing with Johnny to let him go, Edgar used absolutely no morality. In fact, one of the things I thought was interesting about their argument is that Edgar proposed...let's see...what did he say exactly...

"You just *randomely* picked *me* out, when you could have taken someone more *deserving*. You could've picked one of those *street performers* who impersonate robots and make that *irritating* wheezy whistle noise."

Even if it's a minor joke thing (or Jhonen just disliking street performers) it's still a kind of glimpse that Edgar was offering, in a way, that someone else could take his place. Or that someone else DESERVED to take his place, I guess you could say. Random note!

Through the whole segment, Religion plays absolutely no part until after fighting is useless, as it were. Even then, it's not the first thing Edgar mentions when Johnny asks him where his fear is. It comes AFTER Edgar says that he has no one, no family and no friends. But, he adds, he does have his religion.

I don't think of Edgar being vehemently religious...I see him more as a quietly religious person. What was it...like Mith mentioned in her fic, a kind of background hum. He certainly does have his faith, but it's not the defining or focal point of his life, nor does he think it should be involved in the argument to *save* his life. He doesn't attack Johnny in any moral way, not until the end. He doesn't even really criticize Johnny's decisions as moral or amoral until the end. And at that point, I think that Edgar saying that Johnny will go to Hell is one of those "I'm going to die anyway, I may as well say it" moments.

Woah darn it, am I getting off-topic? I always do this. OKAY MOVING ON.

>He struck me, actualy, as anything but indescisive and weak- simply logical enough not to fight an outcome he wasn't upset about. He'd rather not die. Period. He's in a torture device and there's no hope of getting free. Period. His blood is necessary for this crazy man. Thus, fighting is pointless, and it's all going to be evened out in the end anyway. That sort of strength actualy quite impressed me, that accepting your own death- I saw it as strength, not apathy.

~I do as well, yes. I am impressed with the strength that Edgar showed at that point. I also do view it as a kind of quiet acceptance that is very hard to come by, particularly in JTHM-verse. Of course, Edgar's conviction that he'll go to Heaven probably helped in that department. :D

>Zarla's Edgar actualy quite suprised me, at first, by just how weak and indescisive he was- it's all too common that politness is misread as weakness, rationality and logic as apathy.

~I was wondering about this myself recently, and I think I've fallen prey to something that happens ta me a lot of da time with things I read or watch, that kind of thing. I have a tendency to take the end result of something, then assume that that end result was present throughout the entirety of the original material. I do joke and exaggerate Edgar's passive nature (because it leads to amusing situations in pictures and otherwise) but...

Last night, I was looking through old fics, trying ta put them on a rough timeline, and I read through Firefly again. I haven't read that pretty much since I wrote it some two years ago, and I wrote it before Bonk or the entire Perfection concept had solidified in my brain. There is no perfection goal in that fic at all.

I noticed that the Edgar in that fic was so vastly different then the Edgar in current times, because everything that happens in Vargas hadn't happened to him yet, as it were.

I do mock Edgar (as does Scri) for his passive behavior, but I also overlook the fact that's not what he was like at first. He was very proactive actually, as his first instinct WAS to go to the proper authorities, and I noticed that he did get rather snippy with them as well. His thoughts about Nny at that period were unfalteringly condemning, as was his conviction that he would never see him again. Of course, this didn't prove to be so...

His first instinct was for self-preservation. He DID want to get away from Johnny, and he DID try, as best he could. BUT the threat of death, after he had escaped it, and a definite, fairly definite anyway, chance at continued life, prompted him to indulge Johnny. It wasn't because he felt any obligation towards him but because he wanted to stay alive, and at that point he wasn't sure what else to do. And I mean, what else could he do at that point? The police certainly couldn't protect him. Maybe he could have moved or changed his address or name or something, but Johnny had chosen him randomely before. It could always happen again. It did start rather harmlessly at first too, just telephone calls that didn't seem dangerous. He didn't intend for this to happen, it just kind of DID.

There are other random moments of strength that Edgar does show, rather than just that passive fear. He does fight Johnny in Experiment, he argues with him in Empty, he actually physically attacked Krik in Gone, and he definitely fought with Scri back before he had a name and for some time afterward. Before Empty complicated things, Edgar struggled just to stay alive. Almost everything he did at that point was to keep himself alive, and he resorted to much the same tactic he had before...logically working with Johnny, engaging him on that level in an attempt to change his mind from whatever murderous tendencies that may arise. His death wasn't as assured as it was in the original story in these scenarios, so I think he would have been more careful, a bit more concerned and cautious, to keep himself alive as much as possible, because at that point, there was a real definite chance that he could *do* that.

Of course, then Empty came and added a rather negative element of emotional attachment, and that began to change things rather sharply. Scri's prodding, at this point, I think, definitely helped move Edgar from the position of living just to live, and living to try and make Johnny happy, or in Scri-terms, to try and find some real meaning in his life. Scri actually said something interestin in da diaryfic recently that I keep thinking about. He mentioned something like "[edgar's behavior] feeds the rage that you deny that becomes mine."

And thinking back, Scri had to have a source. Scri is essentially rather violent, with his words or otherwise, and rather aggressive. That didn't just happen, it has its place in Edgar. I think someone mentioned that Scri does resemble Edgar before this entire thing happened, before all these questions about himself arose that Edgar couldn't answer. And if ya do put Edgar and Scri back tagether, have da two of them off-set each other's worst tendencies, ya would have something like da original Edgar in da first comic story.

Scri's anger IS Edgar's anger, and Edgar DID have a lot of anger originally. Bonk is a good example of this, I do recall Edgar threatening physical violence against Nny in that if he wasn't physically incapacitated. I also recall that Edgar was angry at Johnny in Café for his behavior. I also remember some anger in Experiment at the position Johnny put him in, the emotions he felt at that point, and just at Johnny for being crazy. Also tinges of anger in Books, I recall, at Johnny's criticizing notes...

The thing is, another interesting thing now that I think about it, is that a lot of the anger originally directed at Johnny is now directed at Scriabin. Scriabin now commands a lot of Edgar's attention, and he's now also the focus of all of Edgar's frustration, irritation, and hatred. All of which Scri feeds on (presumably), although one could look at it as Scri diverting that anger to a safer source. I think Scri did intentionally distract Edgar in Break from angry thoughts about Johnny, and he has more of a tendency to do that in recent times. It could be that Scri is trying to prevent Edgar from hurting someone else or getting himself killed, therefore distracting Edgar from letting out anger externally, or it could just be that he's a big jerk and likes tweaking Edgar. IT'S ALL UP IN THE AIR REALLY.

Of course, anger isn't a sign of strength, although it does speak of a lack of passivity. Aggression though is something that I don't see Edgar as being familiar with before the entire fic started anyway...even at the end of it all, when Edgar said that Johnny was going to Hell, I read more determination and resentment in that rather than anger. That could just be me tho.

In a way, Edgar's determination hasn't faltered through Vargas...he's determined to stay alive, he's determined to find a way through this, he's determined to help Johnny somehow, and he's determined to see this perfection thing through to the end.

Recent chapters though have Scri questioning that determination, whether or not that's essentially a good thing, and I think Edgar's conviction in himself as being a good person, necessarily, is faltering. Edgar's belief in himself as a person is beginning to break down, and who can we blame for that? Scriabin of course. Scri actually has a bigger part in this then I'm normally aware of...a lot of current Edgar's decisions and his passivity can be traced to him. I think Break really made this clear to Scriabin.

I mean, when ya think about it, Scri has been picking at Edgar's decisions since basically chapter two. Its what he does. As time went on, Scriabin became more intelligent, as it were, and became more able to argue against Edgar when he thought he was wrong. He kept growing, kept becoming more complex, developing his own motivations aside from annoying Edgar, that kind of thing. But still, the source of his being is picking Edgar apart, so that's what he tends to do. It's what he's always done.

The thing is that he's gotten better at it and Edgar's gotten weaker, and both of these are things that I don't think Scri was really aware of until recently. Edgar has always fought Scri off before. Scri expects that, he expects Edgar to shake him off eventually, to shake off his criticism and continue on. But as Scri gains power, gains more of a personality, more leverage to work against Edgar, AND this whole wastelock thing has kicked in (although I believe it's still working at a subconscious level at this point) Edgar's defenses aren't what they used to be, particularly against a foe that knows him so well. Scri uses the new information that he can access (he couldn't read Edgar's thoughts before, although he does that all the time now) but still doesn't think it's any different. He's still doing what he's always done, he's still essentially performing his function.

When Edgar flipped out in Break, Scri was completely shocked. This had never happened before, and this will have a huge impact on how Scri behaves in the future. For the first time, Scri's behavior has real, tangible, and damaging consequences. The straw that broke the camel's back, you might say. Whether or not Scri is aware that the wastelock system may have contribued to Edgar's corroding defenses is up for debate, but he still essentially realized two things when Edgar flipped out.

A.) Edgar CAN seriously go insane
B.) He can *potentially* die.

Along with this is the moment in the kitchen when both Scri and Edgar saw the TV on. It hadn't occurred to Scri that even if Edgar DID go insane, he'd probably take Scri with him. It was a minor glimpse, but Scri did not like that possibility.

Scri didn't realize that his behavior could have been contributing to Edgar's current insanity progression (wow that sounds awkward wooo) and that that would, in turn, have negative consequences for him. Also, there was the fact that Edgar could seriously damage the world that Scri knew, and as he brought up, he could potentially destroy him.

Again returning back to Scriabin's source, as it were. That anger and determination that prompted Edgar to condemn Johnny initially...that intense desire to survive. It initially found its home with Edgar, with his logic. Scri does not want to die. He's a fighter, that what he is. And in the process, in the process of developing himself, his personality, his beliefs and his strength, Scri could have been draining Edgar of that ability. Scri borrowed his ability to fight from Edgar, it's what he knows. But as he took that, as he fed off of Edgar's internalized anger (internalized out of necessity to survive) it could be that he took that away from him. That he continues to take that away, that he continues to feed off of that aggression that Edgar can find no place for. It could be that the reason for Edgar's passive behavior now *is* Scri's aggressive nature. The contrast sharpens because to the both of them, that is simply how things are. They both have accepted those roles in their relationship, of Scri attacking and Edgar defending, since Scri began to materialize. Scri always attacked, Edgar always defended. It's what they both understand doing, since they've both done that so long. On a related note, Edgar didn't really attack Johnny in the original story either, not until he thought there was no other option or consequence for that attack. Anyway, the power that Scri draws from Edgar he...darn it, I'm trying to think of this in non-videogameish terms. Scri would use the power he gained from Edgar to help attack him, and Edgar would again keep defending.

Edgar's arguments from Scriabin have changed along with Scriabin himself. Initially, Scriabin would attack him, and Edgar's response would still be aggressive in some way. He was more active back then...what's the word I'm looking for...their arguments were less one-sided. They were both logically fighting at that point, although it was still point-counterpoint, with Edgar always returning Scriabin's volley (woo random sports reference).

What threw a kink in this, and what I think contributed a lot to Scriabin's growth and Edgar's decline, is the entire matter of Johnny and his feelings towards Edgar. The fact that Edgar can't resolve his faith and the possibility of having feelings for Johnny (not even that he does, just that he COULD) is something that he can't logically argue, not like he and Scriabin fought about before. He and Scriabin fought over Johnny, over his motivations, over Edgar's personality, but here was something that Edgar couldn't really fight against, as there was no solution to it that he could easily defend. This is a conflict that I'm not sure will ever be cleanly resolved. Edgar simply can't just let his faith go in favor of Johnny, it goes against everything that has sustained him so far. It runs deep and instinctual. Morality that he's never questioned because that's just the way things are. Homosexuality is not an option for him simply because *it isn't*, but you can't defend that, not logically. What this really gave Scri was a way to consistently wear Edgar down in a way he couldn't defend against. As a result, Edgar began to withdraw from their arguments I've noticed...he doesn't get into arguments with Scri, not like he used to, because he knows that Scri will eventually bring up that Achilles Heel again, and he doesn't know how to defend against that. How to resolve that. He'd argue with Scri willingly, unthinkingly before, but when the issue suddenly turned to something he couldn't resolve, now the last thing he wants to do is fight with him because he knows he can't win. Their arguments are tremendously one-sided now, and I guess you could view it as a kind of learned helplessness. Fighting against Scri at this point has proven useless, since he always brings up the one thing that Edgar can't explain, therefore why keep fighting?

Edgar still does though, he still fights against it because even if he can't explain it logically, that moral system still runs deeper than maybe he knows. He can't be gay because *he can't be gay*, and that's why he keeps getting into these damaging arguments with Scriabin. It's because he *has* to.

And Scriabin feeds off of every loss, off of every time Edgar just gives up because he can't explain this satisfactorily, not to himself or to Scriabin, and Scriabin gains power from him, from his weakness. His passivity now isn't entirely his decision. Scri has a huge part in it and in keeping it in place. Reinforcing it, in his own bizarre way.

But Break again threw a wrench in this, as well as the future 18. Things can't keep going the way they have. Scri has been using that argument as a tool to hurt Edgar without thought for so long, he actually broke something. And in turn, Edgar lashed out at him with all the hatred that normally Scri would have just internalized for him, all the anger and frustration that he normally kept so well in check.

Scri's realized at this point that it can't keep going the same way it's going. If Edgar keeps hating him, keeps wanting him dead, then there's a chance that eventually, Edgar WILL kill him. Somehow. Being kind to him was remarkably successful. Scri's current plan with this new information is to make Edgar depend on him rather than hate him, need him rather than throw him away. His logic here is that if Edgar depends on him, there's no way that Edgar would ever kill him. If Edgar trusts him and his decisions, then he won't get hurt again if Edgar flips out.

And of course, Scri always thinks that he's right and that he knows the way out of things. He's confident that he can keep Edgar, and thus himself, sane. If Edgar listens to him voluntarily, then that threat is extinguished.

Rather than continuing in the "we are enemies" mindset, Scri decides (in Break or maybe 18, I can't remember exactly) that if Edgar thinks they are allies, they'll have a better chance of getting through this mess.

Scri had no real set goal before Break rather than a general desire to keep Edgar alive and also to mock him. Those were the directives that Scri was born with, so to speak, so that was what he always followed and had Break not occurred, there's a good chance that'd be what he would have always followed. Also, there's a good chance that had something like Break occurred before Scri got his name, or heck, before Edgar came back to life, Scri simply wouldn't have had the ability to change his preprogrammed directives. Scri's been developing into a person throughout the fic, and he definitely wasn't always that way. While intelligent, that intelligence was focused on his two directives, and there's a chance that had Edgar had his breakdown beforehand, Scri wouldn't have the self-awareness to change those directives. That's all speculation though.

Anyway, Break changed things for Scri drastically, probably more so than for Edgar, and brought home the reality of what they were facing to him. Scri's goal at this point changes to keeping himself alive, and to do that, he has to keep Edgar sane. Scri's goal becomes to defeat the wastelock system, as he probably understands the repercussions of that more than Edgar does at this point since Edgar's trying to deny that this is happening...reclaim his old life, so to speak, before he got dragged into this. He didn't intend for this to happen, really. Edgar was seriously sincere when he wished to never see Johnny again after he escaped. Then a phonecall that he wasn't sure how to avoid, phonecalls that seemed safe enough, an outing that he hoped would *prevent* his death, not lead to it...and then he got dragged into Johnny's perfection-obsession, and I guess at that point you could say that Edgar's fate was, in a way, decided. Ha, all because Nny randomely chose him, out of a crowd of thousands. Edgar just can't catch a break.

Although, when it comes down to it, I think that when Nny does try to kill Edgar, when that perfection is reached, Edgar will fight back. That's what a human does in those circumstances, they fight back. If Johnny attempted to stab him, I imagine Edgar fighting him off...pushing him away, knocking the knife off to one-side, and perhaps then pinning him down in hopes of logically explaining why this all isn't necessary...but before that logical attempt to reason his way out of this, he would fight back. I think he would. Unless he was restrained or something, and a weird set of circumstances would have to occur for that to be the position Edgar's in when that perfection is reached.

That is, of course, if it ever IS reached. Edgar's wastelock progression makes this all take an ugly turn. Johnny killing himself is still a definite possibility...Broken Circles is as likely an end to Vargas as any...

Haha, as well as someone mentioned, Edgar killing Johnny. After all, Edgar is invincible now under the lock's protection. He CAN'T die. There's a chance that in attempting to defend himself, he would remember that he zapped Johnny before, attempt to do again, and end up killing Johnny semi-accidently. There's a morbid ending for you. Entirely possible though.

Scri is beginning to become more aware of what it exactly means that Edgar can't die. Edgar still doesn't exactly believe this whole thing...

Where was I going with this?

Ah, right. It's fun ta paint Edgar as a doormat (I do it myself, it's a quick way to defuse a serious situation) but he still has strength that I often don't give him credit for. Most of the decisions in the fic, despite Scri's insistence to the contrary, are still his. He decided to take Johnny to the hospital, he decided to go home, he decided to go along with Johnny with this whole perfection thing. There's another interesting piece of it...Edgar did decide to go with this. I don't think he thought it would end with his death though. I mentioned somewhere in some fic once that while Edgar understands the whole perfection concept, what it means, that kind of thing, I don't think he REALLY thinks he's going to die. And really, that's a kind of hard thing to really believe will happen, particularly when the future is so vague. I think Edgar still has confidence that he can fix the situation, as it were. That when that perfect time comes, Johnny will realize that the whole killing thing is unnecessary.

Although now that I think about it, the fact that Johnny kills people has been pushed comfortably to the back of Edgar's mind recently as a fact that doesn't directly apply. I think it was Xel who pointed out that after Johnny comes back from the whole afterlife thing, he doesn't really kill anyone. No wait, after Jimmy. After Jimmy, Johnny doesn't really kill anyone (except that random dude with the arrow).

Also, Edgar's position through most of the fic in comparison to Johnny is anything but even...Johnny has the power (heh. and the sugar. and the money. and the women.) to kill Edgar at any time, and with that constant Sword of Damocles over one's head, just how honest can someone be? Can you really argue with someone when there's a very real and present chance that they could murder you for disagreeing with them? Edgar walks a very thin line in the fic between trying to keep himself alive and trying to maintain his moral and logical positions on several issues...he's constantly weighing the benefits of arguing for something he believes in against the very real possibility that it could get him killed. Again, Edgar didn't seem very bothered with the prospect of dying initially, but he had no choice at that point. What Edgar has through most of Vargas is a choice, as it were, to argue or stay alive. Mostly, he tries to stay alive, although not all the time. It could be luck that's gotten Edgar this far intact, although really it's hard to say that's a good thing. As the creepy diaryfic ilustrates, the future for Edgar can only get worse.

Although, without that threat of being murdered, I imagine Edgar being much more assertive/confident with others. It's the threat of death that brings out that kind of passivity, exactly. With other people and without that threat, I see Edgar being a much more proactive person, as it were. I want him to meet up with Devi again or maybe Tenna at some point to help illustrate how he relates with people other than Nny...that's another problem with Vargas. It focuses so intently on two relationships - Edgar and Nny's and Edgar and Scriabin's - that I tend to forget how he would interact with others. It's something interesting I want to explore, definitely. The Mangofic with Squee was fun to do just to have Edgar interacting with SOMEONE ELSE for once.

Heh. He needs to get out more!

Darn it, I keep doing this. I'm just rambling off on whatever occurs to me. Where was I going with this...

AH right I remember now.

Da thing is, I often ferget that the Edgar in current chapters is vastly different from da Edgar in da first chapter of Vargas, and da second and third and so on. Edgar does change dramatically through the entire fic, and I often ferget that that change occurs at all, instead just thinking that Edgar was ALWAYS that way. He wasn't of course, but I do hafta remind myself of that.

One thing I AM totally aware of all da time tho is that the current Edgar in Vargas has seriously changed since the issue he appeared in. That was kinda my intention tho, I think. Like I mentioned, I always planned fer Edgar ta go insane, and one way that that can happen is that certain character traits that were once kept in check can surge out of control. The logic aspect, fer example.

And WOO I TYPE TOO MUCH.

Actually, I've been planning to make some kind of rambling essaytype thing like this fer a while. I think about the characterization in this fic a lot. A LOT. It mostly stays in little notes in my sketchbook tho. This was just an excuse ta finally do it. I JUST USED YOU, CROW. :O

It's nice ta have it out there somewhere fer once tho. I THINK TOO MUCH ABOUT THINGS.

And as always, yer mileage may vary. Yer interpretation of things may be entirely different ("Zar justifies everything she does because she can't be wrong!" you say to yourself, to which I would have to reluctantly agree), in which case I am totally interested in hearing it. I'm so obsessed with how other people interpret things, darn it. What's wrong with me.

Oh my god WHAT TIME IS IT AGH